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	<title>Comments on: Background on Xinjiang and Chinese Policies in the Region (1800s-2001)</title>
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	<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/</link>
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		<title>By: Roadblock</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2382</link>
		<dc:creator>Roadblock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2382</guid>
		<description>1884 was the year when the Chinese authorities officially set up &quot;Xinjiang Province&quot;, which was after China was fed the Western notion of sovereign nation state. People typically point to that year at an attempt to delegitimize Chinese rule in that area. But Xinjiang was taken under the control of Qing Dynasty long before that. This point shouldn&#039;t be hard to understand. Hawaii was not a state of the US until 1959. So you could make an awkward statement that Hawaii was not incorporated into the US until 1959. Nonetheless, there should be no deny that Pearl Harbor 1941 was an attack on the US.

If you are interested in original historical material on Xinjiang, see if you can find this: 《新疆私议》沈垚. If you can read that, I&#039;m sure you could find all other relevant texts on your own.

I hope you are reasonable enough to agree with me that everyone is different, and that some people are just more prone to violence than others. I know it&#039;s not a politically correct thing to say, but it is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1884 was the year when the Chinese authorities officially set up &#8220;Xinjiang Province&#8221;, which was after China was fed the Western notion of sovereign nation state. People typically point to that year at an attempt to delegitimize Chinese rule in that area. But Xinjiang was taken under the control of Qing Dynasty long before that. This point shouldn&#8217;t be hard to understand. Hawaii was not a state of the US until 1959. So you could make an awkward statement that Hawaii was not incorporated into the US until 1959. Nonetheless, there should be no deny that Pearl Harbor 1941 was an attack on the US.</p>
<p>If you are interested in original historical material on Xinjiang, see if you can find this: 《新疆私议》沈垚. If you can read that, I&#8217;m sure you could find all other relevant texts on your own.</p>
<p>I hope you are reasonable enough to agree with me that everyone is different, and that some people are just more prone to violence than others. I know it&#8217;s not a politically correct thing to say, but it is true.</p>
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		<title>By: Chang</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2252</link>
		<dc:creator>Chang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2252</guid>
		<description>@Roadblock

&quot;Historically the Turkic people were not peaceful.&quot;

I do not think any civilization on this planet has ever been &quot;historically peaceful.&quot; Do you think Chinese people are &quot;historically&quot; peaceful?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Roadblock</p>
<p>&#8220;Historically the Turkic people were not peaceful.&#8221;</p>
<p>I do not think any civilization on this planet has ever been &#8220;historically peaceful.&#8221; Do you think Chinese people are &#8220;historically&#8221; peaceful?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chang</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2251</link>
		<dc:creator>Chang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2251</guid>
		<description>Roadblock,

Sometimes you come off as hostile towards my viewpoints, as if they are invalid. However, I welcome your feedback, even if you disagree with me most of the time.

If this were an academic article for publication, I would edit this post with footnotes, but this is just a blog. I don&#039;t see many news articles or blog posts that even cite sources; if so, they do what I did and put them at the end. I posted this because I am frustrated with recent news coverage in both Western and Chinese media regarding Xinjiang--lots of misinformation, lots of political play. I feel that my interpretation is more balanced (albeit nothing is ever completely neutral) and investigates the issue further back than media coverage out there.

Despite what you say, I never stated that Uyghurs were indigenous to Xinjiang. I just said that they currently live there. Regarding the line you think is BS (In 1884, the Manchu Qing empire brought Xinjiang under its control and incorporated it into the Chinese empire), check:

James Millward, “Violent Separatism in Xinjiang: A Critical Assessment,” Policy Paper 6 (Washington, D.C.: East 
West Center Washington, 2004), 3. 

&quot;Conquest by the Manchu Qing empire in the mid-eighteenth century brought the territories now known as Xinjiang under Qing rule.&quot;

and

Joseph Esherick, “How the Qing Became China,” in Empire to Nation: Historical Perspectives on the Making of the Modern World, eds. Joseph Esherick et al. (Lanham, Maryland: Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, 2006), 231–2.

&quot;It was only under the Manchus that Mongolia, Tibet, and the Muslim areas of Xinjiang...were incorporated into the empire.&quot;

I admit, the date 1884 is a little arbitrary. I wouldn&#039;t mind reforming my previous statement to say mid-eighteenth century.

Where are your sources?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roadblock,</p>
<p>Sometimes you come off as hostile towards my viewpoints, as if they are invalid. However, I welcome your feedback, even if you disagree with me most of the time.</p>
<p>If this were an academic article for publication, I would edit this post with footnotes, but this is just a blog. I don&#8217;t see many news articles or blog posts that even cite sources; if so, they do what I did and put them at the end. I posted this because I am frustrated with recent news coverage in both Western and Chinese media regarding Xinjiang&#8211;lots of misinformation, lots of political play. I feel that my interpretation is more balanced (albeit nothing is ever completely neutral) and investigates the issue further back than media coverage out there.</p>
<p>Despite what you say, I never stated that Uyghurs were indigenous to Xinjiang. I just said that they currently live there. Regarding the line you think is BS (In 1884, the Manchu Qing empire brought Xinjiang under its control and incorporated it into the Chinese empire), check:</p>
<p>James Millward, “Violent Separatism in Xinjiang: A Critical Assessment,” Policy Paper 6 (Washington, D.C.: East<br />
West Center Washington, 2004), 3. </p>
<p>&#8220;Conquest by the Manchu Qing empire in the mid-eighteenth century brought the territories now known as Xinjiang under Qing rule.&#8221;</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>Joseph Esherick, “How the Qing Became China,” in Empire to Nation: Historical Perspectives on the Making of the Modern World, eds. Joseph Esherick et al. (Lanham, Maryland: Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, 2006), 231–2.</p>
<p>&#8220;It was only under the Manchus that Mongolia, Tibet, and the Muslim areas of Xinjiang&#8230;were incorporated into the empire.&#8221;</p>
<p>I admit, the date 1884 is a little arbitrary. I wouldn&#8217;t mind reforming my previous statement to say mid-eighteenth century.</p>
<p>Where are your sources?</p>
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		<title>By: Summary of events for the week ending July 15th &#124; joeflasher.com</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2249</link>
		<dc:creator>Summary of events for the week ending July 15th &#124; joeflasher.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2249</guid>
		<description>[...] Shared Background on Xinjiang and Chinese Policies in the Region (1800s-2001) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Shared Background on Xinjiang and Chinese Policies in the Region (1800s-2001) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Roadblock</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2117</link>
		<dc:creator>Roadblock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2117</guid>
		<description>And Mr. Herbert, I read Chinese history in Chinese because I can, and because that&#039;s how most of the original texts were written. I doubt it would be very useful to you if I list my sources. Also, how could reading history from Wikipedia any worse than reading history from a blog post?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Mr. Herbert, I read Chinese history in Chinese because I can, and because that&#8217;s how most of the original texts were written. I doubt it would be very useful to you if I list my sources. Also, how could reading history from Wikipedia any worse than reading history from a blog post?</p>
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		<title>By: Roadblock</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2116</link>
		<dc:creator>Roadblock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2116</guid>
		<description>Hello Miss. Chang. If I haven&#039;t said so, thank you for your brilliant article. I appreciate the time and effort you put in. And I&#039;m sorry for being so uncharitable. But if you can, please do list more, and please make some footnotes, because you really don&#039;t show me which single piece of information comes from which source. I believe footnotes are a requirement for any serious scholarly paper in CMOS style. It is not helpful to the readers, if you just compile a list of every book or paper you came across on this topic, and put it at the back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Miss. Chang. If I haven&#8217;t said so, thank you for your brilliant article. I appreciate the time and effort you put in. And I&#8217;m sorry for being so uncharitable. But if you can, please do list more, and please make some footnotes, because you really don&#8217;t show me which single piece of information comes from which source. I believe footnotes are a requirement for any serious scholarly paper in CMOS style. It is not helpful to the readers, if you just compile a list of every book or paper you came across on this topic, and put it at the back.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Roadblock</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2115</link>
		<dc:creator>Roadblock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2115</guid>
		<description>Hi Tom. Sorry about my spelling. It should be evident to you that I&#039;m not used to writing in English. But what really matters is not my spelling, but my message: Historically the Turkic people were not peaceful. They are typically on the delivering end of racial violence. The Uyghurs have a extremely violent side as well, which manifested itself in Urumqi a couple of days ago, and resulted in 156 deaths.

Thanks again for correcting my spelling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tom. Sorry about my spelling. It should be evident to you that I&#8217;m not used to writing in English. But what really matters is not my spelling, but my message: Historically the Turkic people were not peaceful. They are typically on the delivering end of racial violence. The Uyghurs have a extremely violent side as well, which manifested itself in Urumqi a couple of days ago, and resulted in 156 deaths.</p>
<p>Thanks again for correcting my spelling.</p>
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		<title>By: Chang</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2100</link>
		<dc:creator>Chang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 12:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2100</guid>
		<description>Where did I get this material? Please check the long sources list at the bottom of my entry. If you should like me to cite even more sources, I can list more for you, all in CMOS format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where did I get this material? Please check the long sources list at the bottom of my entry. If you should like me to cite even more sources, I can list more for you, all in CMOS format.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Herbert</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2084</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2084</guid>
		<description>Read some history from, like, Wikipedia?

&quot;destroied the Byzantine Empire&quot; (sic)
&quot;committed a whole bunch of crimes against humanity&quot;

It&#039;s gripping stuff, Wildean even...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read some history from, like, Wikipedia?</p>
<p>&#8220;destroied the Byzantine Empire&#8221; (sic)<br />
&#8220;committed a whole bunch of crimes against humanity&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s gripping stuff, Wildean even&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Roadblock</title>
		<link>http://quelquefois.net/toujours/2009/07/08/background-on-xinjiang-and-chinese-policies-in-the-region-1800s-2001/comment-page-1/#comment-2078</link>
		<dc:creator>Roadblock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quelquefois.net/toujours/?p=441#comment-2078</guid>
		<description>I am sorry but you&#039;ve got all the facts wrong. Where did you get this material?

Take a look at this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Great_Campaigns

The Uyghurs are not the indiginous people of Xinjiang. Nobody really is. This is a big open flat desert land on the silk road, and a cross-road of different ethnic groups. Different races came and went; they fought and mingled with each other here throughout history. The Uyghurs are a Turkic people originated some where in northern Mongolia and Siberia, just like all the Turkic people. Of cause, that was more than 1000 years ago. But some Turkics still live by the Arctic ocean in the Russian far east today. Most of them fled Tang Dynasty and later the Mongols, and went West. Some made it all the way to the near east, destroied the Byzantine Empire, i.e. what was left of the Roman civilization, founded the notorious Ottoman Empire, committed a whole bunch of crimes against humanity (e.g. the Armenian Genocide during WWI). The Uyghurs are just the ones with relatively less mobility, and settled in Xinjiang.

But Xinjiang was dominated by Lamaist Mongolian tribes, especially by the Dzungars, for hundreds of years until the 18th century. The Uyghurs at the time were marginalized and pushed the to south of Xinjiang against the Tibetan plateau. This all changed in the 1750s when Empirer Qianlong led his Manchu army to wipe out the Dzungars. Qianlong moved the Uyghurs (plus a mix of other Muslim) to filled the vacuum after his genocide against the Dzungars. The name &quot;Xinjiang&quot; was also coined at this time by Qianlong. So that was when Xinjiang finally all converted to Islam. But once the Uyghur gained their foothold in Xinjiang, they started a jihad against the Manchu, and then got decimated by Qianlong of course. All these Manchurian wars and genocides in the 18th century had a nice name, &quot;the peacification of Xinjiang.&quot;

The Uyghur population reached its peak percentage-wise when the communist Chinese got there, making up roughly 75% of all peoples of Xinjiang. But really the Uyghur dominace of the region only happened in the last two hundred years or so. They have no more legitimate claim as indiginous people to their land than whites in North America. 

As to the Han Chinese, we are definitely not the first people in Xinjiang. But we are probably one of the earlier peoples to bring civilization there, we are definitely one the first to record its history. The silk was of great interest to us before sea routes to the Middle East were established. So we dominate the area on and off for nearly a millenium after we defeated the Huns in the 2nd century before Christ, especially during Han and Tang Dynasties. A lot of the now Uyghur towns and cities were initially founded by Han Chinese, and later occupied by Mongols and all sorts of peoples. For Example Urumqi started out as Luntai Country of the Tang Empire. The greatest Chinese poet, Li Bai, who coincidentally wrote some of the most racist poems (e.g. 胡无人) against 胡人 &quot;the rude western tribes&quot;, was born in present-day Kyrgyzstan during Tang Dynasty.

After some major technological breakthoughs in navigation in Song Dynasty 1000 years ago(the invention of megnatic compus, etc.), we Chinese lost interest in that desert. After all, we were the people who were used to buiding and hiding behind the Great Wall. International trading was mainly done by sea. So Xinjiang fell to different nomadic tribes, and eventually to Muslims.

I have no idea where you got the idea &quot; In 1884, the Manchu Qing empire brought Xinjiang under its control and incorporated it into the Chinese empire. &quot; It is all BS. If you really want to know the story behind this place, read some history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry but you&#8217;ve got all the facts wrong. Where did you get this material?</p>
<p>Take a look at this.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Great_Campaigns" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Great_Campaigns</a></p>
<p>The Uyghurs are not the indiginous people of Xinjiang. Nobody really is. This is a big open flat desert land on the silk road, and a cross-road of different ethnic groups. Different races came and went; they fought and mingled with each other here throughout history. The Uyghurs are a Turkic people originated some where in northern Mongolia and Siberia, just like all the Turkic people. Of cause, that was more than 1000 years ago. But some Turkics still live by the Arctic ocean in the Russian far east today. Most of them fled Tang Dynasty and later the Mongols, and went West. Some made it all the way to the near east, destroied the Byzantine Empire, i.e. what was left of the Roman civilization, founded the notorious Ottoman Empire, committed a whole bunch of crimes against humanity (e.g. the Armenian Genocide during WWI). The Uyghurs are just the ones with relatively less mobility, and settled in Xinjiang.</p>
<p>But Xinjiang was dominated by Lamaist Mongolian tribes, especially by the Dzungars, for hundreds of years until the 18th century. The Uyghurs at the time were marginalized and pushed the to south of Xinjiang against the Tibetan plateau. This all changed in the 1750s when Empirer Qianlong led his Manchu army to wipe out the Dzungars. Qianlong moved the Uyghurs (plus a mix of other Muslim) to filled the vacuum after his genocide against the Dzungars. The name &#8220;Xinjiang&#8221; was also coined at this time by Qianlong. So that was when Xinjiang finally all converted to Islam. But once the Uyghur gained their foothold in Xinjiang, they started a jihad against the Manchu, and then got decimated by Qianlong of course. All these Manchurian wars and genocides in the 18th century had a nice name, &#8220;the peacification of Xinjiang.&#8221;</p>
<p>The Uyghur population reached its peak percentage-wise when the communist Chinese got there, making up roughly 75% of all peoples of Xinjiang. But really the Uyghur dominace of the region only happened in the last two hundred years or so. They have no more legitimate claim as indiginous people to their land than whites in North America. </p>
<p>As to the Han Chinese, we are definitely not the first people in Xinjiang. But we are probably one of the earlier peoples to bring civilization there, we are definitely one the first to record its history. The silk was of great interest to us before sea routes to the Middle East were established. So we dominate the area on and off for nearly a millenium after we defeated the Huns in the 2nd century before Christ, especially during Han and Tang Dynasties. A lot of the now Uyghur towns and cities were initially founded by Han Chinese, and later occupied by Mongols and all sorts of peoples. For Example Urumqi started out as Luntai Country of the Tang Empire. The greatest Chinese poet, Li Bai, who coincidentally wrote some of the most racist poems (e.g. 胡无人) against 胡人 &#8220;the rude western tribes&#8221;, was born in present-day Kyrgyzstan during Tang Dynasty.</p>
<p>After some major technological breakthoughs in navigation in Song Dynasty 1000 years ago(the invention of megnatic compus, etc.), we Chinese lost interest in that desert. After all, we were the people who were used to buiding and hiding behind the Great Wall. International trading was mainly done by sea. So Xinjiang fell to different nomadic tribes, and eventually to Muslims.</p>
<p>I have no idea where you got the idea &#8221; In 1884, the Manchu Qing empire brought Xinjiang under its control and incorporated it into the Chinese empire. &#8221; It is all BS. If you really want to know the story behind this place, read some history.</p>
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